The war is over, and Irak is safer than never....

>
>

"Nemo l'ancien" > wrote in message
...
> The war is over, and Irak is safer than never....
>
> >
> >

Easy for you to say, your family wasn't being fed into meat grinders under
Saddam.

Jarg

In message >, Jarg
> writes
>Easy for you to say, your family wasn't being fed into meat grinders under
>Saddam.

Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
"defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
through it.

Hussein had plenty of other ways to nastily kill people which he and his
thugs were generous in using, but it's interesting how cheerfully people
will swallow a load of old ********.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Jarg
> > writes
> >Easy for you to say, your family wasn't being fed into meat grinders
under
> >Saddam.
>
> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
> through it.
>
> Hussein had plenty of other ways to nastily kill people which he and his
> thugs were generous in using, but it's interesting how cheerfully people
> will swallow a load of old ********.

I could see an AG shredder, but not a plastic shredder.

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Jarg
> > writes
> >Easy for you to say, your family wasn't being fed into meat grinders
under
> >Saddam.
>
> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
> through it.


http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2004/02/plastic_shredde_2.html


Jarg

In message >, Jarg
> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
>> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
>> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
>> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
>> through it.
>
>http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2004/02/plastic_shredde_2.html

In other words, the claims remain anonymous, uncorroborated and unproven
(and you confirm that nobody ever found the shredder, despite supposedly
being told which prison to check) - there's an anonymous untraceable
anecdote with not a hint of physical evidence.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

>
No, under Nazis and that's enough...

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Jarg
> > writes
> >"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
> >> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
> >> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
> >> through it.
> >
> >http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2004/02/plastic_shredde_2.html
>
> In other words, the claims remain anonymous, uncorroborated and unproven
> (and you confirm that nobody ever found the shredder, despite supposedly
> being told which prison to check) - there's an anonymous untraceable
> anecdote with not a hint of physical evidence.
>
> --
> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> W S Churchill
>
> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

That's not what I got out of the article at all. At this point, the more
obvious conclusion is that the shredder did exist and was used. Of course
that doesn't fit you agenda so I doubt you will accept the evidence.

Jarg

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
>
> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
> through it.

Yea, same with the Jews in Eastern Europe. No one really saw the
ovens working, and what the hell, most of them didn't have proper
birth certificates filed with the government, so they probably really
didn't exist.

In message <FB_cc.640$BR1.580@okepread03>, D. Strang
> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
>>
>> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
>> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
>> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
>> through it.
>
>Yea, same with the Jews in Eastern Europe. No one really saw the
>ovens working, and what the hell, most of them didn't have proper
>birth certificates filed with the government, so they probably really
>didn't exist.

Except that the ovens were found. ('Ovens' implies major outside heat:
'gas chamber' fits better. I've been through a couple, though with the
'gas' being mere CS to test and teach proper fitting of a gasmask.)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message >, Jarg
> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
>> In other words, the claims remain anonymous, uncorroborated and unproven
>> (and you confirm that nobody ever found the shredder, despite supposedly
>> being told which prison to check) - there's an anonymous untraceable
>> anecdote with not a hint of physical evidence.
>>
>> --
>> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
>> W S Churchill
>>
>> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
>
>That's not what I got out of the article at all.

So where's the shredder?

>At this point, the more
>obvious conclusion is that the shredder did exist and was used.

So where is it? Saddam Hussein and his sons couldn't get _themselves_
out of Iraq undetected yet they managed to completely and totally hide a
large piece of industrial machinery?

If you were Saddam Hussein, would you really think "Damn, those Yankee
infidels are closing in on me! I can get one shipment out of the
country... I'd better get my people-shredder away, while I live in a
miserable hole in the ground until the infidel Yankees catch me!"

>Of course
>that doesn't fit you agenda so I doubt you will accept the evidence.

If it existed and the evidence is that strong, where is the hardware?

It's getting on for a year since the prison was captured: where's the
shredder?

Show me some evidence. Not hearsay, not "some bloke said so but refused
to let us use his name". The shredder was named and shamed with an exact
location: yet it wasn't actually there.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
>
> So where is it? Saddam Hussein and his sons couldn't get _themselves_
> out of Iraq undetected yet they managed to completely and totally hide a
> large piece of industrial machinery?

If they can hide a MiG in the sand, what else did they hide out there?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3116259.stm

Pete

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, Jarg
> > writes
> >"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In other words, the claims remain anonymous, uncorroborated and
unproven
> >> (and you confirm that nobody ever found the shredder, despite
supposedly
> >> being told which prison to check) - there's an anonymous untraceable
> >> anecdote with not a hint of physical evidence.
> >>
> >> --
> >> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> >> W S Churchill
> >>
> >> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
> >
> >That's not what I got out of the article at all.
>
> So where's the shredder?
>
> >At this point, the more
> >obvious conclusion is that the shredder did exist and was used.
>
> So where is it? Saddam Hussein and his sons couldn't get _themselves_
> out of Iraq undetected yet they managed to completely and totally hide a
> large piece of industrial machinery?
>
> If you were Saddam Hussein, would you really think "Damn, those Yankee
> infidels are closing in on me! I can get one shipment out of the
> country... I'd better get my people-shredder away, while I live in a
> miserable hole in the ground until the infidel Yankees catch me!"
>
> >Of course
> >that doesn't fit you agenda so I doubt you will accept the evidence.
>
> If it existed and the evidence is that strong, where is the hardware?
>
> It's getting on for a year since the prison was captured: where's the
> shredder?
>
> Show me some evidence. Not hearsay, not "some bloke said so but refused
> to let us use his name". The shredder was named and shamed with an exact
> location: yet it wasn't actually there.
>
> --
> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> W S Churchill
>
> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

http://www.indict.org.uk/about.php

We do have evidence, mainly credible witnesses, you just don't want to
accept it. There is no reason to believe Indict is fabricating the story,
nor can I imagine why their witness would. It also seems likely that the
shredder would have been destroyed when the coalition began it's advance
into Iraq, certainly that's what I would have done were I in Saddams place.
Of course there is a possibility the shredder didn't exist, but at this
point I think a fair person would acknowlege that is more likely than not
that it did. But as I already said, that doesn't mesh with your agenda so
you will continue to demand unreasonably high standards of proof.

Jarg

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message <FB_cc.640$BR1.580@okepread03>, D. Strang
> > writes
> >"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
> >>
> >> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
> >> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
> >> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
> >> through it.
> >
> >Yea, same with the Jews in Eastern Europe. No one really saw the
> >ovens working, and what the hell, most of them didn't have proper
> >birth certificates filed with the government, so they probably really
> >didn't exist.
>
> Except that the ovens were found. ('Ovens' implies major outside heat:
> 'gas chamber' fits better. I've been through a couple, though with the
> 'gas' being mere CS to test and teach proper fitting of a gasmask.)
>
> --
> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> W S Churchill
>
> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk


The torture chambers were found in Iraq also.

Jarg

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message >...

> Except that the ovens were found. ('Ovens' implies major outside heat:
> 'gas chamber' fits better. I've been through a couple, though with the
> 'gas' being mere CS to test and teach proper fitting of a gasmask.)

I think he meant the ovens that disposed of corpses. Those were also
present, even at camps that did not have working gas chambers (for
example, Sachsenhausen, the only KZ I had the stomach to visit).

Chris Manteuffel

In message >, Jarg
> writes
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
>> If it existed and the evidence is that strong, where is the hardware?
>>
>> It's getting on for a year since the prison was captured: where's the
>> shredder?
>>
>> Show me some evidence. Not hearsay, not "some bloke said so but refused
>> to let us use his name". The shredder was named and shamed with an exact
>> location: yet it wasn't actually there.

>We do have evidence, mainly credible witnesses, you just don't want to
>accept it.

Who are these "credible witnesses"?

>There is no reason to believe Indict is fabricating the story,
>nor can I imagine why their witness would.

Because atrocity stories are good for publicity.

>It also seems likely that the
>shredder would have been destroyed when the coalition began it's advance
>into Iraq, certainly that's what I would have done were I in Saddams place.

So where's the wreckage, or by "destroyed" do you mean "disintegrated"?
Again, with US tanks closing in, these Iraqis are notionally more
interested in destroying evidence than in escaping?

>Of course there is a possibility the shredder didn't exist, but at this
>point I think a fair person would acknowlege that is more likely than not
>that it did.

A "fair person" would ask to see it, or at least for more than nameless
hearsay.

>But as I already said, that doesn't mesh with your agenda so
>you will continue to demand unreasonably high standards of proof.

I've got some prime farmland for sale and "credible witnesses" who are
sure there's oil, gold *and* diamonds to be had under it: want to buy?

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:43:11 -0500, D. Strang > wrote:
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
>>
>> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
>> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
>> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
>> through it.
>
>Yea, same with the Jews in Eastern Europe. No one really saw the
>ovens working, and what the hell, most of them didn't have proper
>birth certificates filed with the government, so they probably really
>didn't exist.

Well, no. There is numerous evidence that the holocaust happened,
from named witnesses. There are many documented, named people who
perished in the gas chambers. There are documented, named people who
worked in Nazi death camps where the gas chambers were located.
Finally, and most tellingly, there is the physical evidence of the
death camps and gas chambers themselves.

There are no names for this supposed Iraqi people shredder: no names
of people killed in the shredder, no names of witnesses, no names of
people operating the shredder, no physical evidence that the
shredder existed.

There is no doubt that Saddam was guilty of many murders and other
crimes, and his government behaved brutally. It's not necessary to
repeat unproven allegations as fact.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 00:07:51 GMT, Jarg > wrote:
>
>"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
>> In message <FB_cc.640$BR1.580@okepread03>, D. Strang
>> > writes
>> >"Paul J. Adam" > wrote
>> >>
>> >> Did anyone ever actually find that shredder? It was "alleged" by a
>> >> "defector" who "heard it from other dissidents" - turns out nobody ever
>> >> actually saw it, nobody ever found it, nobody can name anyone fed
>> >> through it.
>> >
>> >Yea, same with the Jews in Eastern Europe. No one really saw the
>> >ovens working, and what the hell, most of them didn't have proper
>> >birth certificates filed with the government, so they probably really
>> >didn't exist.
>>
>> Except that the ovens were found. ('Ovens' implies major outside heat:
>> 'gas chamber' fits better. I've been through a couple, though with the
>> 'gas' being mere CS to test and teach proper fitting of a gasmask.)
>>
>> --
>> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
>> W S Churchill
>>
>> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
>
>
>The torture chambers were found in Iraq also.

Yes, but the "people-shredder" hasn't!

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)